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Building A 36FT Delta Double Conyne
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Barry T



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Building A 36FT Delta Double Conyne Reply with quote

Hello Everybody,
I'm not new at all, to kiting. I've been flying for about 20 years, in my adult life. We fly mostly big stuff now,Sutton 450,s 252,s, a360sq.ft. Harry Osborne Flow Foil, and I could go on, but you get the picture. We bought all these kites.Now, I want to make one. I've made a couple 170' tube tails, and countless sand anchors, so I've got the straight stitch down pretty good. That's one reason I chose the conyne. I find the information on this site invaluable, and will be using the info I've read so far. Any additional info, or tips, or tricks I could use would be deeply appreciated. I know it's a BIG project, for my first kitebuild, but I'm confident I can do this. I'll be asking many questions for sure,so bear with me. Laughing I'm using silicone impregnated 1.5oz Ripstop. I've worked with this stuff before. It's so slick, it's the hardest Ripstop to work with,I think. What's the best way to keep the panels from slipping, and bunching as I sew them together? I used seam tape before, but that didn't work too well, as nothing really sticks to this fabric. I went with the silicone, as opposed to the poly backed, because it's stronger. Given the size of the kite, I wanted the stronger of the two. Thanks for all your help. Barry
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Fore Check
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered "hot tacking"?

Doug LaRock would be an excellent resource in putting together a delta-type kite of this size. Hope you post some pics!
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mikenchico
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Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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Location: Chico, Ca

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Barry, Mike & Rhonda here, Yeah I showed you hot tacking but that is a big project and you could pull the tacks apart with rolling up that much fabric to get through the machine.

Have you tried the C3 Sailtape Kitebuilder sells? Seems to be real sticky and being thicker it creeps into the weave of the fabric overnight well. Tape your seams, burnish them well and let them sit for a day in a warm room, don't heat set it. I bet it'll do the job since they build America's Cup racing sails using it without sewing.

1/2" - C3 tape - http://www.kitebuilder.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/1330?osCsid=44a7e9dac45c30546b4a69e4345920e3

3/8" - C3 tape - http://www.kitebuilder.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/1187?osCsid=44a7e9dac45c30546b4a69e4345920e3

Oh post us some drawings of your sail design, keeping to a simple geometric design, just some classic stripes or you going all out?

.
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Last edited by mikenchico on Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pumpkin



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 7948
Location: Birmingham UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hya Barry and Welcome

I reckon a double DC 36ft span goe beyond building 101 but wow, one helluver first project

Can't help with many suggestions as both size and silicon coating is beyond my experience.
As Simon said, Doug La Rock is the guy for advise on spars and the like..... he starts kite building when most airlines include a flight attendant Wink

On the silicon coating, you're not the first here to comment on the slippiness and difficulty in keeping it aligned. Offhand I can't thnk of anyone whose posted a usable repeatable solution

I suspect the usual users, like hot air balloon makers will be using industrial sewing machines, quite possibly with needle feed to keep alignment.

Otherwise, I'd be looking at the top quality DS tape....like the 3m products

Good luck with the project and please keep us posted with developments
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Doug LaRock
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Joined: 12 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Barry T, I don't have any experience with silicone coated fabric. I usually cut pieces so the ends and edges line up and sew them together. I do use pins or seam tape at times. Its been my experience that fabric strength isn't as big a factor as one might think, that reinforcing the high stress points is more critical. So in your design look for where you have high stress areas such as, spreader or spar attachment points or where cells come together. My first 30 ft delta was made out of .75 oz. and it worked well. Then I built a 40 ft. and thought I should use 1.5 oz. it worked ok but the kite was heavier than it needed to be. Since then I've built a 60 ft and a 44 ft both using .75 oz. and have had no fabric strength problems. Any time I had problems it been at an area of high point loading. If you need any help with spars please contact me as I have a couple of sources outside of the range of stuff that Steve carries. Hope you have fun and when you get ready to fly it be careful, it will pull like a truck. Please post pictures of your build.

Doug
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Grant L
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Joined: 16 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Barry,
Sounds like a great project. I have some of the silicone coated stuff and we nicknamed it Slipstop nylon. The stuff I have is slipperier than ice and will not hold a crease. I got mine as scraps from a hot air balloon factory. When I was sorting the piles, my kids loved to take a running start and slide across the linoleum on the stuff. I tried everything to get it to stick together, ( tape/hot tacking,) and couldn't find anything that worked well. I called my connection at the factory to get help. He said that he talked to the ladies in the sewing department and they said that they just learned to hold it together as they sewed Eh? So the advice from Doug may prove correct. Easy shapes that won't be difficult to hold together and sew. I don't want to discourage you just save some frustration of searching for a solution.
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kiteguy
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Joined: 16 Sep 2003
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Location: USA - Kansas, Overland Park - Near Kansas City

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Barry, and all. I will add to the pile about the tough sewing with the silicon coated stuff. I got a box that Grant had obtained. I could find nothing that would stick to it.

Pins were the best choice, but even then they would fall out. Not much friction to hold them in place.

Just cut the edges straight, line 'em up, and take what you get. I did not enjoy the sewing experience much. However, the material I got was no way near the 1.5 oz you mention. It was more like very thin plastic covered with a mucus like substance.

However, I did find that after 3 projects, the third worked MUCH easier than the first! They were not large projects, either. A fighter kite, and a couple of line laundry "ornaments".

I got a fish kit from New Zeland that was made from very similar material. I enjoyed working with that, even though I could not get any tape to stick to it, either. Pins stayed in a bit better, though.

Good luck with your project. Keep us posted on progress. Wink
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William Watson



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
I wonder if misting the surfaces with water just before sewing might work??
Have heard that this works on very slick fabric when nothing else will.
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kiteguy
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Location: USA - Kansas, Overland Park - Near Kansas City

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water might work. But not sure of the effect of the moisture in the material.

I did a project that required several strips 1" wide between pieces of material. I put on some glue stick. Water soluable. The moisture in the glue expanded the strips a bit without me knowing it. I sewed things down. When the moisture went away there were hundreds of wrinkles in the skin. I do not do that any more.

I would check the results on some scrap pieces first, before trusting the water to surfaces technique. However, it may work. If the silicone behaves around the water, and water behaves around silicone. Wink
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Barry T



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Guys,
Keep it coming, please! This is all good stuff. I've been thinking maybe I would use this silicone material on tube tails, and buy some polyback material for the kite. I want to enjoy making the kite, not dread going to my sewing table. I'll use 352 sq ft of fabric building it. I don't want to be fighting it all the way. I'm also thinking about going with 3/4 oz, instead of 1.5oz, to lower the bottom end of my wind range a bit. Any other suggestions, or info is much appreciated. Barry
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torontokitefliers



Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1021
Location: www.tkf.toronto.on.ca

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todd Vest of Rochester, NY made a 36 foot delta conyne. He's come on the forums before.

"Spanning 36 feet and created using 1.25" aluminum tubing and 1" fiberglass poles, the Shazam DC is my biggest kite. Area is 230 sq. feet, weight is just under 22 lbs."


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Barry T



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful kite. I'm anxious to have one of my own! I will by Spring!
Barry
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mux



Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 342
Location: Eastern Iowa

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When your making this size... how do you get a feel for sparing? what will hold and what is best to use???

When you get started please post your progress and tell us how your doing stuff! im anxious to watch the progress~!

cheers!
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themax



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Building A 36FT Delta Double Conyne Reply with quote

Barry T wrote:
What's the best way to keep the panels from slipping, and bunching as I sew them together? I used seam tape before, but that didn't work too well, as nothing really sticks to this fabric.


I'm not sure what the best way is, but here are my two ideas. Seams in this material is sealed using both hot-set seam sealing tape and silicone seam sealer when it is used for outdoor gear.
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